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Questions and Answers on the Teaching

MN 44, the Cūḷavedalla Sutta — set 5, Advanced and Reference Texts

Reading time: about 14 min · 2,446 words

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Before you read

The layman Visākha puts a long run of questions to the bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā, and she answers every one: what identity is, how it arises and how it ceases, what the eightfold path is, what unification of mind is, what happens in the attainment of cessation, and how the three kinds of felt experience relate to the underlying tendencies.

It moves quickly and covers an unusual amount of ground for its length. When Visākha finally takes the whole exchange to the Buddha to check it, the Buddha tells him he would have answered in exactly the same way.

Read it as a compact survey of the doctrine — and notice who is teaching whom.

Translation

The Setting

So I heard.

At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, at the squirrels' feeding ground.

Then Visākha the lay follower went to Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī. He bowed to her and sat to one side. Once seated, he said:

Identity

"Ayye, people say, 'identity, identity.'

What does the Buddha call identity, Ayye?"

"Friend Visākha, the Buddha calls these five clung-to heaps identity:

  • the clung-to heap of form
  • the clung-to heap of felt experience
  • the clung-to heap of recognition
  • the clung-to heap of putting things together
  • the clung-to heap of knowing

Friend Visākha, the Buddha calls these five clung-to heaps identity."

Saying, "Good, Ayye," Visākha the lay follower was glad and approved of Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī's words. Then he asked her a further question:

The Origin of Identity

"Ayye, people say, 'the origin of identity, the origin of identity.'

What does the Buddha call the origin of identity?"

"Friend Visākha, it is that ignorant wanting that leads to renewed becoming, accompanied by relishing and passion, delighting here and there, that is:

  • ignorant wanting for sensuality
  • ignorant wanting for becoming
  • ignorant wanting for non-becoming

This, friend Visākha, is what the Buddha calls the origin of identity."

The Quenching of Identity

"Ayye, people say, 'the quenching of identity, the quenching of identity.'

What does the Buddha call the quenching of identity?"

"Friend Visākha, it is the complete fading and quenching of that very ignorant wanting: giving it up, relinquishing it, freedom, non-attachment.

This, friend Visākha, is what the Buddha calls the quenching of identity."

How to Quench Identity Again

"Ayye, people say, 'how to quench identity again, how to quench identity again.'

What does the Buddha call how to quench identity again?"

"Friend Visākha, it is just this noble eightfold path:

  • right view
  • right attitude
  • right speech
  • right action
  • right livelihood
  • right effort
  • right remembering
  • right unification of mind

This, friend Visākha, is what the Buddha calls how to quench identity again."

Taking Personally

"Is taking personally the same as the five clung-to heaps, Ayye, or is it separate from them?"

"Friend Visākha, taking personally is not the same as the five clung-to heaps, nor is it separate from them.

The desire and passion in regard to the five clung-to heaps: that is the taking personally there."

Identity View

"But, Ayye, how does identity view come to be?"

"Friend Visākha, an unlearned ordinary person, someone who has not seen the noble ones, who is unskilled and untrained in the noble Dhamma, someone who has not seen true persons, who is unskilled and untrained in the true person's Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as having form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

That person regards felt experience as self, or self as having felt experience, or felt experience as in self, or self as in felt experience.

That person regards recognition as self, or self as having recognition, or recognition as in self, or self as in recognition.

That person regards putting things together as self, or self as having putting things together, or putting things together as in self, or self as in putting things together.

That person regards knowing as self, or self as having knowing, or knowing as in self, or self as in knowing.

This, friend Visākha, is how identity view comes to be."

"But, Ayye, how does identity view not come to be?"

"Friend Visākha, a learned noble disciple, someone who has seen the noble ones, who is skilled and trained in the noble Dhamma, someone who has seen true persons, who is skilled and trained in the true person's Dhamma, does not regard form as self, or self as having form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

That disciple does not regard felt experience as self, or self as having felt experience, or felt experience as in self, or self as in felt experience.

That disciple does not regard recognition as self, or self as having recognition, or recognition as in self, or self as in recognition.

That disciple does not regard putting things together as self, or self as having putting things together, or putting things together as in self, or self as in putting things together.

That disciple does not regard knowing as self, or self as having knowing, or knowing as in self, or self as in knowing.

This, friend Visākha, is how identity view does not come to be."

The Noble Eightfold Path

"Ayye, what is the noble eightfold path?"

"Friend Visākha, it is just this noble eightfold path:

  • right view
  • right attitude
  • right speech
  • right action
  • right livelihood
  • right effort
  • right remembering
  • right unification of mind"

"Ayye, is the noble eightfold path conditioned or unconditioned?"

"Friend Visākha, the noble eightfold path is conditioned."

"Ayye, are the three heaps included within the noble eightfold path, or is the noble eightfold path included within the three heaps?"

"Friend Visākha, the three heaps are not included within the noble eightfold path. Rather, the noble eightfold path is included within the three heaps.

Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are included within the conduct heap.

Right effort, right remembering, and right unification of mind are included within the unification heap.

Right view and right attitude are included within the discernment heap."

Unification of Mind

"Ayye, what is unification of mind? What dhammas are signs of unification of mind? What dhammas are its equipment? What is the development of unification of mind?"

"Friend Visākha, directness of the heart is unification of mind.

The four establishments of sati are signs of unification of mind.

The four right exertions are its equipment.

The repetition, development, and making-much of these same dhammas is the development of unification of mind here."

Three Conditioners

"Ayye, how many conditioners are there?"

"Friend Visākha, there are these three conditioners:

  • the body conditioner
  • the verbal conditioner
  • the mind conditioner"

"Ayye, what is the body conditioner? What is the verbal conditioner? What is the mind conditioner?"

"Friend Visākha, in-breathing and out-breathing are the body conditioner.

Thinking and pondering are the verbal conditioner.

Recognition and felt experience are the mind conditioner."

"Ayye, why are in-breathing and out-breathing the body conditioner? Why are thinking and pondering the verbal conditioner? Why are recognition and felt experience the mind conditioner?"

"Friend Visākha, in-breathing and out-breathing are bodily dhammas, bound up with the body. That is why in-breathing and out-breathing are the body conditioner.

First a person thinks and ponders, and afterward they break into speech. That is why thinking and pondering are the verbal conditioner.

Recognition and felt experience are mental dhammas, bound up with the heart. That is why recognition and felt experience are the mind conditioner."

Attainment of Cessation

"Ayye, how does the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience come to be?"

"Friend Visākha, for a bhikkhu entering the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, it does not occur:

'I will enter the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience,' or 'I am entering the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience,' or 'I have entered the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience.'

Rather, that bhikkhu's heart has already been developed in such a way that it leads to that state."

"Ayye, for a bhikkhu entering the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, which dhammas are quenched first: the body conditioner, the verbal conditioner, or the mind conditioner?"

"Friend Visākha, for a bhikkhu entering the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, the verbal conditioner is quenched first, then the body conditioner, then the mind conditioner."

"Ayye, how does emergence from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience come to be?"

"Friend Visākha, for a bhikkhu emerging from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, it does not occur:

'I will emerge from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience,' or 'I am emerging from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience,' or 'I have emerged from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience.'

Rather, that bhikkhu's heart has already been developed in such a way that it leads to that state."

"Ayye, for a bhikkhu emerging from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, which dhammas arise first: the body conditioner, the verbal conditioner, or the mind conditioner?"

"Friend Visākha, for a bhikkhu emerging from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, the mind conditioner arises first, then the body conditioner, then the verbal conditioner."

"Ayye, how many contacts touch a bhikkhu who has emerged from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience?"

"Friend Visākha, three contacts touch a bhikkhu who has emerged from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience:

  • emptiness contact
  • signless contact
  • wishless contact"

"Ayye, for a bhikkhu who has emerged from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, toward what is the heart inclined, sloping, and leaning?"

"Friend Visākha, for a bhikkhu who has emerged from the attainment of cessation of recognition and felt experience, the heart is inclined to seclusion, slopes to seclusion, and leans to seclusion."

Three Kinds of Felt Experience

"Ayye, how many kinds of felt experience are there?"

"Friend Visākha, there are these three kinds of felt experience:

  • pleasant feeling
  • painful feeling
  • mixed feeling"

"Ayye, what is pleasant feeling? What is painful feeling? What is mixed feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, whatever bodily or mental satisfaction, whatever agreeable felt experience is felt: this is pleasant feeling.

Whatever bodily or mental dissatisfaction, whatever disagreeable felt experience is felt: this is painful feeling.

Whatever bodily or mental felt experience is neither agreeable nor disagreeable: this is mixed feeling."

"Ayye, in what way is pleasant feeling satisfying, and in what way is it dissatisfying? In what way is painful feeling satisfying, and in what way is it dissatisfying? In what way is mixed feeling satisfying, and in what way is it dissatisfying?"

"Friend Visākha, pleasant feeling is satisfying while it stays and dissatisfying when it changes.

Painful feeling is dissatisfying while it stays and satisfying when it changes.

Mixed feeling is satisfying when there is knowledge and dissatisfying when there is no knowledge."

Felt Experience and Underlying Tendencies

"Ayye, what underlying tendency lies underneath pleasant feeling? What underlying tendency lies underneath painful feeling? What underlying tendency lies underneath mixed feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, the underlying tendency toward passion lies underneath pleasant feeling.

The underlying tendency toward resistance lies underneath painful feeling.

The underlying tendency toward ignorance lies underneath mixed feeling."

"Ayye, does the underlying tendency toward passion lie underneath every pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency toward resistance lie underneath every painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency toward ignorance lie underneath every mixed feeling?"

"No, friend Visākha. The underlying tendency toward passion does not lie underneath every pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency toward resistance does not lie underneath every painful feeling. The underlying tendency toward ignorance does not lie underneath every mixed feeling."

"Ayye, what should be abandoned in relation to pleasant feeling? What should be abandoned in relation to painful feeling? What should be abandoned in relation to mixed feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, the underlying tendency toward passion should be abandoned in relation to pleasant feeling.

The underlying tendency toward resistance should be abandoned in relation to painful feeling.

The underlying tendency toward ignorance should be abandoned in relation to mixed feeling."

"Ayye, should the underlying tendency toward passion be abandoned in relation to every pleasant feeling? Should the underlying tendency toward resistance be abandoned in relation to every painful feeling? Should the underlying tendency toward ignorance be abandoned in relation to every mixed feeling?"

"No, friend Visākha. The underlying tendency toward passion should not be abandoned in relation to every pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency toward resistance should not be abandoned in relation to every painful feeling. The underlying tendency toward ignorance should not be abandoned in relation to every mixed feeling.

Friend Visākha, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome dhammas, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the first mental theme, with thinking and pondering, with rejoicing and satisfaction born of seclusion.

Through that, they abandon passion, and the underlying tendency toward passion does not lie there.

Friend Visākha, a bhikkhu reflects:

'When will I enter and remain in that field which the noble ones now enter and remain in?'

As they set up longing for unsurpassed releases, distress arises with longing as condition.

Through that, they abandon resistance, and the underlying tendency toward resistance does not lie there.

Friend Visākha, with the abandoning of ease and discomfort, and with the earlier ending of gladness and distress, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the fourth mental theme, without discomfort and without ease, with purity of remembering through dynamic balance.

Through that, they abandon ignorance, and the underlying tendency toward ignorance does not lie there."

Counterparts

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, painful feeling is the counterpart of pleasant feeling."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of painful feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, pleasant feeling is the counterpart of painful feeling."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of mixed feeling?"

"Friend Visākha, ignorance is the counterpart of mixed feeling."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of ignorance?"

"Friend Visākha, clear knowledge is the counterpart of ignorance."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of clear knowledge?"

"Friend Visākha, release is the counterpart of clear knowledge."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of release?"

"Friend Visākha, nibbāna is the counterpart of release."

"Ayye, what is the counterpart of nibbāna?"

"You have gone too far with the question, friend Visākha. You could not grasp the limit of questions.

Friend Visākha, the spiritual life is grounded in nibbāna, directed to nibbāna, and completed in nibbāna.

If you wish, friend Visākha, you should go to the Buddha and ask him about this matter. You should remember it just as the Buddha answers."

The Buddha Confirms Dhammadinnā

Then Visākha the lay follower was glad and approved of Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī's words. He rose from his seat, bowed to her, and respectfully circled her, keeping her to his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat to one side.

Once seated, he recounted his whole conversation with Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī.

When this was said, the Buddha said to him:

"Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī is wise, Visākha. Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī has great discernment.

If you had asked me about this matter, I would have answered it in exactly the same way that Dhammadinnā the bhikkhunī answered it.

That is its meaning. Remember it like this."

That is what the Buddha said.

Visākha the lay follower was satisfied and welcomed what the Buddha had said.

The Cūḷavedalla Sutta, the fourth discourse, is finished.

Words used in this translation (50)
becoming
This project's rendering of "bhava" -- the settling of experience into a way of being that feels like somebody being something. Often translated "existence."
bhikkhu
A Buddhist monk -- someone who has left household life to practise full time. Left untranslated because "monk" carries centuries of unrelated European associations.
body
The physical body, as distinct from speech and the mental side of experience.
born of seclusion
Coming from having stepped away from busyness and distraction, rather than from anything acquired.
cessation
The ending of dissatisfaction and its causes: what practice is finally for. Elsewhere on this site the same idea appears as "quenching". Both render the same Pali word, "nirodha", in different sentences.
clung-to heaps
The five categories experience gets sorted into and then grasped as "me" or "mine" -- body, feeling, recognition, mental activity, and awareness. Not clinging to the categories themselves, but to the sense of ownership placed on top of them.
conditioned
This project's rendering of "saṅkhata" -- anything that came about because other things did, and that stops when they stop. Nearly everything is.
conduct
This project's rendering of "sīla", often translated "morality" or "virtue". It means how a person actually behaves. The rest of the practice grows from it; it is not a set of rules to obey.
contact
This project's rendering of "phassa" -- the meeting of a sense, its object, and the knowing of it. A technical link in the dependent-arising sequence, not physical touch specifically.
Dhamma
The Buddha's teaching taken as a whole -- both what he taught and the way things actually are, which the teaching describes.
dissatisfaction
This translation's rendering of "dukkha," the Buddhist term for the unsatisfying, unstable quality of ordinary experience. Often translated "suffering," but that can sound more dramatic than the everyday sense of things not quite being right.
dynamic balance
This project's rendering of "upekkhā" (often translated "equanimity") -- a steadiness that stays engaged rather than checking out, distinct from indifference.
emptiness
This project's rendering of "suññatā". In MN 122 it is a way of dwelling, entered by not attending to any signs.
fading
The fading away of attraction and investment in experience, as passion cools.
felt experience
This project's rendering of "vedanā", often translated "feeling". It is the immediate pleasant, painful, or mixed tone of an experience, before any story we build on top of it.
form
This project's rendering of "rūpa" -- the physical, material aspect of experience, one of the five heaps.
gladness
This project's rendering of "muditā", often translated "sympathetic joy". It means being truly glad at someone else's good fortune. You cultivate it as a practice; you do not assume it comes naturally.
heaps
This project's rendering of "khandhā" (usually translated "aggregates") -- the five piles experience gets sorted into: form, felt experience, recognition, putting-together activities, and knowing.
heart
This project's rendering of "citta": the feeling side of mind. It takes on moods, wants, leans, and reacts. Practice can gladden, steady, train, and release it. Some call it the "heart-mind" or "feeling mind". Here "heart" does not mean only emotion, or the physical organ.
ignorance
This project's rendering of "avijjā" -- not general stupidity, but specifically not seeing how dissatisfaction works and how it ends. The first link in the dependent-arising sequence.
ignorant wanting
Wanting something you can't have right now. This project's rendering of "taṇhā", often translated "craving". We call it ignorant because it comes from not seeing clearly; ordinary, sensible wanting is something else.
knowing
This project's rendering of "viññāṇa" (often translated "consciousness") -- bare awareness of an object through one of the senses or the mind.
mental theme
This project's rendering of "jhāna" -- a single theme the mind rests on and holds steadily. Described in a sequence of four, each calmer than the last. Most translations leave the word in Pāli.
mixed feeling
A felt experience that is neither clearly pleasant nor clearly unpleasant. Rendered "mixed" rather than "neutral" to keep it an active third register rather than a flat absence of feeling.
nibbāna
The end of greed, hatred, and confusion -- the traditional goal of Buddhist practice. Left untranslated because no single English word covers it; "quenching" is the closest one-word gloss.
noble disciple
Someone who has had the breakthrough into the path and so is no longer merely an ordinary person. It does not mean noble by birth, and does not require being a monastic.
noble eightfold path
The eight-part practice these texts teach: right view, right attitude, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right remembering, and right unification of mind.
ordinary person
This project's rendering of "puthujjana" -- someone who has not yet had the breakthrough into the path. It is the standard term for the untrained starting point, not an insult.
putting things together
This project's rendering of "saṅkhāra": the ongoing activity of assembling experience, and also what that activity assembles. Context shows which of the two the text means. Other translations often say "formations" or "fabrications", which this project avoids as needlessly opaque.
quenching
An extinguishing image for dissatisfaction and its causes going out. Different Pali words use this image on different pages, so the exact scope comes from the sentence.
recognition
This project's rendering of "saññā" (often translated "perception") -- the mind's act of identifying and labeling what it encounters.
rejoicing
This project's rendering of "pīti" (often translated "rapture") -- the bright, uplifted gladness that shows up when practice is going well.
remembering
This project's rendering of "sati". It means actively keeping what matters in mind and coming back to it when you lose it. It is not bare attention to whatever happens to be present.
resistance
A reflexive pushing-away from what's unwanted, arising automatically in response to unpleasant feeling.
right action
Acting without harming -- a factor of the eightfold path.
right attitude
This project's rendering of the path factor usually translated "right intention" -- the underlying motivation a person brings to their actions.
right effort
Effort that is well aimed: heading off what is unhelpful and building up what helps -- a factor of the eightfold path.
right livelihood
Making a living in a way that does not depend on harming or deceiving anyone -- a factor of the eightfold path.
right remembering
This project's rendering of the path factor usually translated "right mindfulness" -- keeping what actually matters in view, moment to moment, rather than losing track of it.
right speech
Speech that is truthful, kind, timely, and worth saying -- a factor of the eightfold path.
right unification of mind
The path factor in which the mind gathers together and becomes unified, supported and directed by the rest of the noble path. The thinking mind and the heart work as one whole; nobody forces them into a trance.
right view
Seeing how experience and practice actually work -- the first factor of the eightfold path. "Right" here means well-aimed and accurate, not morally righteous.
seclusion
This project's rendering of "viveka" -- being apart from the usual pull of the senses and from unwholesome states. Physical solitude is one form of it, not the whole of it.
spiritual life
The Buddhist path of practice as a whole -- not just a set of beliefs, but a whole way of living.
taking personally
This project's rendering of "upādāna" -- treating some piece of experience as "me" or "mine" and holding on to it. Usually translated "clinging" or "attachment."
unconditioned
This project's rendering of "asaṅkhata" -- what did not come about that way. The word says only what it is not; the texts deliberately do not describe it further.
underlying tendency
A reactive pattern that isn't necessarily active right now but is ready to reassert itself given the right conditions -- lying underneath rather than gone.
unification
Short for unification of mind (samādhi) inside a longer phrase, such as "born of unification" or "the faculty of unification."
unification of mind
This project's rendering of "samādhi" -- the thinking mind and heart gathered together into one organized, workable whole instead of pulling against each other. It does not mean narrowing attention onto one point. Usually translated "concentration," which this project avoids because it suggests forcing and strain.
unwholesome
This project's rendering of "akusala". Roughly: mentally and ethically harmful. It is blameworthy, leads to harm, and people with good judgment criticize it.
Source and corrections