Skip to content
Brickwall Unlimited

The Longer Questions and Answers

MN 43, the Mahāvedalla Sutta — set 5, Advanced and Reference Texts

Reading time: about 17 min · 2,897 words

Skip to the translation

Before you read

Mahākoṭṭhika asks Sāriputta one precise question after another, and Sāriputta answers each. What discernment is, and how it differs from knowing. How felt experience, recognition, and knowing relate — joined, he says, not separable. What the first mental theme consists of. What the faculties rest on. What the different kinds of release actually are.

This is the longer and harder companion to MN 44, and it assumes more. Read that one first.

The final third is where the vocabulary of release gets its most careful handling anywhere on this site — the place to come when "release of mind" and "release through discernment" have started to blur together.

Translation

The Setting

So I heard.

At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī, in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's park.

Then in the late afternoon Venerable Mahākoṭṭhika came out of seclusion and went to Venerable Sāriputta. They exchanged greetings and shared a courteous, memorable conversation. Then Mahākoṭṭhika sat to one side and said to Sāriputta:

Poor In Discernment

"Friend, people say, 'poor in discernment, poor in discernment.'

In what way is someone said to be poor in discernment, friend?"

"'They do not discern, they do not discern,' friend: that is why someone is said to be poor in discernment.

And what do they not discern?

They do not discern 'this is dissatisfaction.' They do not discern 'this is the origin of dissatisfaction.' They do not discern 'this is the quenching of dissatisfaction.' They do not discern 'this is how to quench dissatisfaction again.'

'They do not discern, they do not discern,' friend: that is why someone is said to be poor in discernment."

"Good, friend," Venerable Mahākoṭṭhika said. He was pleased with what Venerable Sāriputta had said, and he agreed with it. Then he asked a further question:

Discerning

"Friend, people say, 'discerning, discerning.'

In what way is someone said to be discerning, friend?"

"'They discern, they discern,' friend: that is why someone is said to be discerning.

And what do they discern?

They discern 'this is dissatisfaction.' They discern 'this is the origin of dissatisfaction.' They discern 'this is the quenching of dissatisfaction.' They discern 'this is how to quench dissatisfaction again.'

'They discern, they discern,' friend: that is why someone is said to be discerning."

Knowing

"Friend, people say, 'knowing, knowing.'

In what way is it said to be knowing, friend?"

"'It knows, it knows,' friend: that is why it is said to be knowing.

And what does it know?

It knows 'satisfying,' it knows 'dissatisfying,' and it knows 'neither dissatisfying nor satisfying.'

'It knows, it knows,' friend: that is why it is said to be knowing."

Discernment and Knowing

"Friend, discernment and knowing: are these dhammas mixed together or separate? And is it possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them?"

"Friend, discernment and knowing are mixed together, not separate. It is not possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them.

For what someone discerns, friend, they know; and what they know, they discern.

That is why these dhammas are mixed together, not separate, and why it is not possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them."

"Friend, discernment and knowing: these dhammas are mixed together, not separate. What then is the difference between them?"

"Friend, discernment and knowing are mixed together, not separate. Of these, discernment is to be developed, and knowing is to be fully understood.

That is the difference between them."

Felt Experience

"Friend, people say, 'felt experience, felt experience.'

In what way is it said to be felt experience, friend?"

"'It feels, it feels,' friend: that is why it is said to be felt experience.

And what does it feel?

It feels what is satisfying, it feels what is dissatisfying, and it feels what is neither dissatisfying nor satisfying.

'It feels, it feels,' friend: that is why it is said to be felt experience."

Recognition

"Friend, people say, 'recognition, recognition.'

In what way is it said to be recognition, friend?"

"'It recognizes, it recognizes,' friend: that is why it is said to be recognition.

And what does it recognize?

It recognizes blue, it recognizes yellow, it recognizes red, and it recognizes white.

'It recognizes, it recognizes,' friend: that is why it is said to be recognition."

Felt Experience, Recognition, and Knowing

"Friend, felt experience, recognition, and knowing: are these dhammas mixed together or separate? And is it possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them?"

"Friend, felt experience, recognition, and knowing are mixed together, not separate. It is not possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them.

For what someone feels, friend, they recognize; and what they recognize, they know.

That is why these dhammas are mixed together, not separate, and why it is not possible to take them apart, again and again, and describe the difference between them."

What Purified Mind-Knowing Reaches

"Friend, what can be reached by purified mind-knowing, released from the five faculties?"

"Friend, by purified mind-knowing, released from the five faculties, the sphere of boundless space can be reached as 'space is boundless'; the sphere of boundless knowing can be reached as 'knowing is boundless'; and the sphere of nothingness can be reached as 'there is nothing.'"

"Friend, with what does someone discern a dhamma that can be reached?"

"Friend, someone discerns a dhamma that can be reached with the eye of discernment."

"Friend, what is the purpose of discernment?"

"Friend, the purpose of discernment is higher knowing, full understanding, and abandoning."

The Conditions for Right View

"Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the word of another, and wise attention.

Friend, these are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

"Friend, by how many factors is right view supported when it has release of mind as its fruit and benefit, and release through discernment as its fruit and benefit?"

"Friend, right view is supported by five factors when it has release of mind as its fruit and benefit, and release through discernment as its fruit and benefit.

Friend, right view is supported by conduct, supported by learning, supported by discussion, supported by tranquility, and supported by insight.

By these five factors, friend, right view is supported when it has release of mind as its fruit and benefit, and release through discernment as its fruit and benefit."

Becoming

"Friend, how many kinds of becoming are there?"

"Friend, there are these three kinds of becoming: sensual existence, form existence, and formless existence."

"Friend, how does renewed becoming arise in the future?"

"Friend, for beings hindered by ignorance, fettered by ignorant wanting, and delighting now here and now there, renewed becoming arises in the future."

"Friend, how does renewed becoming not arise in the future?"

"Friend, when ignorance fades, true knowledge arises, and ignorant wanting is quenched, renewed becoming does not arise in the future."

The First Mental Theme

"Friend, what is the first mental theme?"

"Friend, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome dhammas, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the first mental theme, which has thinking and pondering, and the rejoicing and satisfaction born of seclusion.

Friend, this is called the first mental theme."

"Friend, how many factors does the first mental theme have?"

"Friend, the first mental theme has five factors.

Friend, for a bhikkhu who has entered the first mental theme there occur thinking, pondering, rejoicing, satisfaction, and directness of heart.

Friend, that is how the first mental theme has five factors."

"Friend, how many factors has the first mental theme left behind, and how many factors does it have?"

"Friend, the first mental theme has left behind five factors and has five factors.

Friend, for a bhikkhu who has entered the first mental theme, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth and torpor is abandoned, restlessness and worry is abandoned, and doubt is abandoned;

and there occur thinking, pondering, rejoicing, satisfaction, and directness of heart.

Friend, that is how the first mental theme has left behind five factors and has five factors."

The Five Faculties and What They Rely On

"Friend, there are these five faculties with different scopes and different ranges, and they do not experience one another's range and scope. They are:

  • the eye faculty
  • the ear faculty
  • the nose faculty
  • the tongue faculty
  • the body faculty

Now, friend, these five faculties have different scopes and different ranges, and they do not experience one another's range and scope. What is their resort, and what experiences their range and scope?"

"Friend, there are these five faculties with different scopes and different ranges, and they do not experience one another's range and scope. They are:

  • the eye faculty
  • the ear faculty
  • the nose faculty
  • the tongue faculty
  • the body faculty

Now, friend, these five faculties have different scopes and different ranges, and they do not experience one another's range and scope. The thinking mind is their resort, and the thinking mind experiences their range and scope."

"Friend, there are these five faculties. They are:

  • the eye faculty
  • the ear faculty
  • the nose faculty
  • the tongue faculty
  • the body faculty

Depending on what do these five faculties remain, friend?"

"Friend, there are these five faculties. They are:

  • the eye faculty
  • the ear faculty
  • the nose faculty
  • the tongue faculty
  • the body faculty

Depending on vitality, friend, these five faculties remain."

"Depending on what does vitality remain, friend?"

"Vitality remains depending on warmth."

"Depending on what does warmth remain, friend?"

"Warmth remains depending on vitality."

"Just now, friend, we understood Venerable Sāriputta to say, 'vitality remains depending on warmth.' And just now, friend, we understood Venerable Sāriputta to say, 'warmth remains depending on vitality.'

How should the meaning of this statement be seen, friend?"

"Then, friend, I will give you a simile. Some intelligent people here understand the meaning of a statement through a simile.

Suppose, friend, an oil lamp were burning. Its light appears depending on its flame, and its flame appears depending on its light.

Friend, in just the same way, vitality remains depending on warmth, and warmth remains depending on vitality."

Vitality Conditioners and Felt Dhammas

"Friend, are the vitality conditioners the very same as the dhammas that are felt, or are the vitality conditioners one thing and the dhammas that are felt another?"

"Friend, the vitality conditioners are not the very same as the dhammas that are felt.

For if the vitality conditioners were the very same as the dhammas that are felt, friend, no emergence would be discerned for a bhikkhu who had entered the cessation of recognition and felt experience.

It is because the vitality conditioners are one thing and the dhammas that are felt another, friend, that emergence is discerned for a bhikkhu who has entered the cessation of recognition and felt experience."

When the Body Is Left Behind

"How many dhammas must leave this body, friend, before it lies discarded and cast aside like an unfeeling log?"

"Friend, when three dhammas leave this body -- vitality, warmth, and knowing -- it lies discarded and cast aside like an unfeeling log."

"Friend, what is the difference between someone who has died and passed away, and a bhikkhu who has entered the cessation of recognition and felt experience?"

"Friend, for someone who has died and passed away, the body conditioner has ceased and subsided, the verbal conditioner has ceased and subsided, the mind conditioner has ceased and subsided, vitality is exhausted, warmth is stilled, and the faculties are broken up.

For a bhikkhu who has entered the cessation of recognition and felt experience, the body conditioner has ceased and subsided, the verbal conditioner has ceased and subsided, the mind conditioner has ceased and subsided, but vitality is not exhausted, warmth is not stilled, and the faculties are bright.

Friend, that is the difference between someone who has died and passed away and a bhikkhu who has entered the cessation of recognition and felt experience."

The Neither-Dissatisfying-Nor-Satisfying Release of Mind

"Friend, how many conditions are there for entering the release of mind that is neither dissatisfying nor satisfying?"

"Friend, there are four conditions for entering the release of mind that is neither dissatisfying nor satisfying.

Friend, with the abandoning of satisfaction and the abandoning of dissatisfaction, and with the earlier ending of gladness and sadness, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the fourth mental theme, which is neither dissatisfying nor satisfying and has the purity of dynamic balance and remembering.

Friend, these are the four conditions for entering the release of mind that is neither dissatisfying nor satisfying."

The Signless Release of Mind

"Friend, how many conditions are there for entering the signless release of mind?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for entering the signless release of mind: not attending to any signs, and attending to the signless element.

Friend, these are the two conditions for entering the signless release of mind."

"Friend, how many conditions are there for remaining in the signless release of mind?"

"Friend, there are three conditions for remaining in the signless release of mind: not attending to any signs, attending to the signless element, and the earlier putting together.

Friend, these are the three conditions for remaining in the signless release of mind."

"Friend, how many conditions are there for emerging from the signless release of mind?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for emerging from the signless release of mind: attending to all signs, and not attending to the signless element.

Friend, these are the two conditions for emerging from the signless release of mind."

Different in Meaning, or Different Only in Letter

"Friend, there is the measureless release of mind, the release of mind through nothingness, the release of mind through emptiness, and the signless release of mind. Are these dhammas different in meaning and different in letter, or are they one in meaning and different only in letter?"

"Friend, there is the measureless release of mind, the release of mind through nothingness, the release of mind through emptiness, and the signless release of mind. There is a mode of exposition, friend, by which these dhammas are different in meaning and different in letter;

and there is a mode of exposition, friend, by which these dhammas are one in meaning and different only in letter.

Friend, what is the mode of exposition by which these dhammas are different in meaning and different in letter?

Friend, a bhikkhu remains pervading one direction with a heart imbued with friendliness, and likewise the second, the third, and the fourth. So above, below, across, everywhere, to all as to himself, he remains pervading the whole world with a heart imbued with friendliness, abundant, expansive, measureless, without hostility, without ill will.

He remains pervading with a heart imbued with kindness towards others ...

with a heart imbued with gladness ...

He remains pervading one direction with a heart imbued with dynamic balance, and likewise the second, the third, and the fourth. So above, below, across, everywhere, to all as to himself, he remains pervading the whole world with a heart imbued with dynamic balance, abundant, expansive, measureless, without hostility, without ill will.

Friend, this is called the measureless release of mind.

And what is the release of mind through nothingness, friend?

Friend, by completely surmounting the sphere of boundless knowing, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the sphere of nothingness, aware that 'there is nothing.'

Friend, this is called the release of mind through nothingness.

And what is the release of mind through emptiness, friend?

Friend, a bhikkhu who has gone to the wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, reflects like this:

'This is empty of a self or of what belongs to a self.'

Friend, this is called the release of mind through emptiness.

And what is the signless release of mind, friend?

Friend, by not attending to any signs, a bhikkhu enters and remains in the signless unification of mind.

Friend, this is called the signless release of mind.

Friend, this is the mode of exposition by which these dhammas are different in meaning and different in letter.

One in Meaning, Different Only in Letter

Friend, what is the mode of exposition by which these dhammas are one in meaning and different only in letter?

Friend, passion is a maker of measurement; aversion is a maker of measurement; delusion is a maker of measurement.

For a bhikkhu whose outflows are exhausted, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with, and unable to arise in the future.

Of all the measureless releases of mind, friend, the unshakable release of mind is declared the foremost.

And that unshakable release of mind is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

Friend, passion is a something; aversion is a something; delusion is a something.

For a bhikkhu whose outflows are exhausted, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with, and unable to arise in the future.

Of all the releases of mind through nothingness, friend, the unshakable release of mind is declared the foremost.

And that unshakable release of mind is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

Friend, passion is a maker of signs; aversion is a maker of signs; delusion is a maker of signs.

For a bhikkhu whose outflows are exhausted, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with, and unable to arise in the future.

Of all the signless releases of mind, friend, the unshakable release of mind is declared the foremost.

And that unshakable release of mind is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

Friend, this is the mode of exposition by which these dhammas are one in meaning and different only in letter."

Closing

That is what Venerable Sāriputta said.

Venerable Mahākoṭṭhika was satisfied and delighted in what Venerable Sāriputta had said.

Words used in this translation (45)
aversion
One of the three "roots" behind unwholesome action, alongside greed and delusion -- the pushback against what's unwanted or unpleasant.
becoming
This project's rendering of "bhava" -- the settling of experience into a way of being that feels like somebody being something. Often translated "existence."
bhikkhu
A Buddhist monk -- someone who has left household life to practise full time. Left untranslated because "monk" carries centuries of unrelated European associations.
body
The physical body, as distinct from speech and the mental side of experience.
born of seclusion
Coming from having stepped away from busyness and distraction, rather than from anything acquired.
cessation
The ending of dissatisfaction and its causes: what practice is finally for. Elsewhere on this site the same idea appears as "quenching". Both render the same Pali word, "nirodha", in different sentences.
conduct
This project's rendering of "sīla", often translated "morality" or "virtue". It means how a person actually behaves. The rest of the practice grows from it; it is not a set of rules to obey.
delusion
One of the three "roots" behind unwholesome action, alongside greed and aversion -- the confusion that keeps you from seeing what's actually happening.
dhamma
Depending on the sentence, either the Buddha's teaching or simply a thing, quality, or state of affairs. These texts use one word for both, and each passage makes clear which it means.
dissatisfaction
This translation's rendering of "dukkha," the Buddhist term for the unsatisfying, unstable quality of ordinary experience. Often translated "suffering," but that can sound more dramatic than the everyday sense of things not quite being right.
doubt
Uncertainty and indecision, especially about the practice and the teaching. As one of the five hindrances, it keeps the mind wavering instead of committing.
dynamic balance
This project's rendering of "upekkhā" (often translated "equanimity") -- a steadiness that stays engaged rather than checking out, distinct from indifference.
emptiness
This project's rendering of "suññatā". In MN 122 it is a way of dwelling, entered by not attending to any signs.
faculties
The capacities used in practice, especially confidence, energy, remembering, unification of mind, and discernment. You can train them and bring them into balance.
felt experience
This project's rendering of "vedanā", often translated "feeling". It is the immediate pleasant, painful, or mixed tone of an experience, before any story we build on top of it.
form
This project's rendering of "rūpa" -- the physical, material aspect of experience, one of the five heaps.
friendliness
This project's rendering of "mettā" (often translated "loving-kindness") -- an intentionally cultivated goodwill extended outward, including to people you don't know.
gladness
This project's rendering of "muditā", often translated "sympathetic joy". It means being truly glad at someone else's good fortune. You cultivate it as a practice; you do not assume it comes naturally.
heart
This project's rendering of "citta": the feeling side of mind. It takes on moods, wants, leans, and reacts. Practice can gladden, steady, train, and release it. Some call it the "heart-mind" or "feeling mind". Here "heart" does not mean only emotion, or the physical organ.
higher knowing
Direct, personally realized understanding -- knowing something for yourself rather than taking it on faith. In some texts it also names the extraordinary knowings that arise from deep concentration.
ignorance
This project's rendering of "avijjā" -- not general stupidity, but specifically not seeing how dissatisfaction works and how it ends. The first link in the dependent-arising sequence.
ignorant wanting
Wanting something you can't have right now. This project's rendering of "taṇhā", often translated "craving". We call it ignorant because it comes from not seeing clearly; ordinary, sensible wanting is something else.
ill will
Hostility toward others or situations: pushing things away and wishing them harm. As one of the five hindrances, it pulls the mind off track.
kindness towards others
This project's rendering of "karuṇā", often translated "compassion". It is an active wish for others to be free of suffering. You cultivate it on purpose, not only when the feeling comes by itself.
knowing
This project's rendering of "viññāṇa" (often translated "consciousness") -- bare awareness of an object through one of the senses or the mind.
mental theme
This project's rendering of "jhāna" -- a single theme the mind rests on and holds steadily. Described in a sequence of four, each calmer than the last. Most translations leave the word in Pāli.
outflows
This project's rendering of "āsavā" -- deep-running habits that keep seeping out and driving behaviour, classically sensuality, becoming, and ignorance. Often translated "taints" or "defilements."
quenching
An extinguishing image for dissatisfaction and its causes going out. Different Pali words use this image on different pages, so the exact scope comes from the sentence.
recognition
This project's rendering of "saññā" (often translated "perception") -- the mind's act of identifying and labeling what it encounters.
rejoicing
This project's rendering of "pīti" (often translated "rapture") -- the bright, uplifted gladness that shows up when practice is going well.
release of mind
Release described from the mind or heart side of experience, often paired with release through discernment.
release through discernment
Release described from the clear-understanding side, paired with release of mind rather than reduced to intellectual knowledge.
remembering
This project's rendering of "sati". It means actively keeping what matters in mind and coming back to it when you lose it. It is not bare attention to whatever happens to be present.
restlessness and worry
When agitation and nagging worry or regret pull you off track. One of the five hindrances.
right view
Seeing how experience and practice actually work -- the first factor of the eightfold path. "Right" here means well-aimed and accurate, not morally righteous.
seclusion
This project's rendering of "viveka" -- being apart from the usual pull of the senses and from unwholesome states. Physical solitude is one form of it, not the whole of it.
sensual desire
When wanting something pleasant pulls you off track. One of the five hindrances.
sloth and torpor
When sluggishness, heaviness, and sinking energy pull you off track. One of the five hindrances.
sphere of boundless knowing
A deep meditative state in which awareness rests on knowing itself without limit.
sphere of boundless space
A deep meditative state in which awareness rests on space without limit.
sphere of nothingness
A deep meditative state in which awareness rests on there being nothing at all to take up.
thinking mind
This project's rendering of "mano": the part of mind that thinks and registers ideas. These texts count it as a sixth sense, alongside the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
unification of mind
This project's rendering of "samādhi" -- the thinking mind and heart gathered together into one organized, workable whole instead of pulling against each other. It does not mean narrowing attention onto one point. Usually translated "concentration," which this project avoids because it suggests forcing and strain.
unwholesome
This project's rendering of "akusala". Roughly: mentally and ethically harmful. It is blameworthy, leads to harm, and people with good judgment criticize it.
world
A word whose scope shifts with the teaching. It can mean the lived world we build through the senses and the mind, or the wider physical cosmos. The surrounding passage shows which sense it has.
Source and corrections